tv Morning Joe MSNBC December 6, 2012 3:00am-6:00am PST
at the top of the show we asked why are you awake? john tower has some answers. first, i have a few. can you get your pops to do the "gangnam style" on the next appearance on the show? i don't think so. also up way too early. hoping that mika will get me the pizza hut perfume. not a chance. what else do you have, john? >> why am i awake? fab mika and witty joe, no. that's guy million-dollar smile. he gets me out the door every morning. >> you're fired. take it. >> "morning joe" starts right now. it took us three months to establish trust. these guys don't trust each other. they don't even trust each other in their own party. you've got leaders who, people behind them with a shif hoping they can get their job the next go 'round. poor old durbin has people over his back because he voted for
this package. and the republicans, boehner's got to go to work and come back, and now there's 70 of them left, the tea party guys. these are guys who went to congress not to limit government but to stop it. so what are you going to do? we've got five democrats, five republicans who range from dick durbin of illinois, great progressive democrat, and coburn of oklahoma, a progressive conservative, and five dems, five republicans, one independent, that's a super majority. and for god's sake, the reason we were so successful is we effectively pissed off everybody in america. >> congratulations, sir. kudos. kudos to you. >> good morning. it's thursday, december 6th. welcome to "morning joe." with us on set, msnbc political analyst, former democratic congressman, harold ford jr. >> mr. professor. >> good morning. >> professor. >> and we have former treasury official and "morning joe" economic analyst, steve rattner.
>> financier. >> rattner is here. i like -- and we have to go back to that. it's the truth. >> it is! >> money is money. >> in washington, msnbc and "time" senior political analyst, mark halperin. >> we saw him on the streets of d.c. yesterday, and he was very cagey. >> the mean streets of d.c. >> yes. he was so cagey. >> he was. >> yes. yes. >> you can't ever ask those guys what they're doing, wherever they are. where you going? with who? a meeting. >> auditioning for a gang is what i'm doing. >> right. >> yes, exactly. lots of luck with that one. >> should we get to the news? >> fantastic. boy, there's some stories here, unbelievable. >> in the least. >> you talk about libya. i tell you what, you've got assad about to cross that red line. he's going to see russia leaving quick. i think you'll see even troops going in there if he starts using chemical weapons against his own people. about to cross the line. egypt, morsi in trouble.
the biggest revolt since mubarak was pushed out of power. "the new york times" also has another fascinating story. john boehner gained strong backing of the house gop. they actually say that the speaker's more powerful today than he has been since he became speaker two years ago. >> well, that's exactly the opposite of what we were discussing on the set yesterday with matt lewis. >> yeah. i guess one question is, is that story there for a purpose, which is to make him appear stronger, and also, is he strong in relation to the offer that's on the table, which is an offer that does not reflect compromise yet? >> well, he is strong, i think, as long as he's not seen as bowing down and caving in to the president. i will tell you, there are conservatives dair a s -- erick who is trying to get him removed as speaker, saying they only need 16 votes to drive john boehner out of time. >> that's kind of my point.
>> a situation described as very fluid. >> how many degrees of freedom does he have from where he is now and who's holding the pen when they sign those letters? >> yeah, i don't think he's got a lot of freedom. harold, what do you think? >> i hope he stays strong for the simple reason that if and when a deal is close to being done, he has some authority and influence within that caucus to bring a critical mass that may be needed to create a majority. i also think it's good in the political process for leaders to be strong. i won't always agree and probably find myself disagreeing with john a lot more on policy, but if he's weak and the president's strong, and you reverse the party construct, you well know it's hard to make deals and forge compromise and create progress when you have that kind of scenario. so i hope the article -- i hope the article is more accurate than not. >> all right. well, with 25 days to go until the year-end fiscal cliff deadline, president obama and speaker boehner spoke on the phone yesterday for the first time in days. both men agreed not to publicly
characterize how the conversation went. but the stalemate in negotiations entered new territory yesterday with treasury secretary tim geithner suggesting the white house is ready to go off the cliff if republicans refuse to raise taxes on the 2%. >> if republicans do not agree to that, is the administration prepared to go over the fiscal cliff? >> oh, absolutely. again, there's no prospect to an agreement that doesn't involve those rates going up on the top 2% of the wealthiest americans -- remember, it's only 2%. the size of the problem in some sense is so large, it can't be solved without rates going up as part of that. again, i think there's broad recognition of that reality now. >> one fallback option republicans are reportedly considering is to accept tax cuts for the middle class, allow rates to go up for the wealthiest, and then start the fight over again during debt limit talks early next year. yesterday at a business roundtable of ceos, president obama took a hard line, warning
his opponents not to consider this strategy. >> if congress in any way suggests that they're going to tie negotiations to dell creting votes and take us to the brink of default once again as part of a budget negotiation, which, by the way, we have never done in our history until we did it last year, i will not play that game. >> well, i wonder, the president's saying, steve, that, you know what, we can raise rates now and maybe lower them later next year so republicans are now saying we can raise rates now. maybe we'll lower them later and we'll talk about it during the debt ceiling. now he's saying no, we're not going to talk about it then either. when would we have this debate when we were renaming post offices in july? can you clarify something for people that are watching? republicans are talking about raising taxes on the rich.
and john boehner said that yesterday. we're talking about raising taxes on the rich. we're just not talking about raising the top marginal rate, right? i mean, both sides are now talking about raising taxes on the rich, just two different ways. >> yeah, i think that was an interesting comment of boehner's and i think put another fine point on what they've been saying, and a concession that the tax money, whether it's $800 billion, $1.2 trillion, $1.6 trillion, it's going to come from wealthy people. now we're arguing about how does it come from wealthy people? and you have this divide between -- i think a strong ideological position on the republican side, not rates, and somewhat ideological, somewhat practical position on the obama side saying we can't get to $1.6 trillion without doing rates. now, we're not going to get to $1.6 trillion, so it becomes academic. >> can we get to $1.2 trillion where i think and others think we're going to end up without raising the rates? >> you can do it mathematically. it works. you can write laws that do it. the question you have to say to yourself, do you want to start eliminating charitable
deductions for state and local taxes, for charitable, for health care, even, for retirement funds? in other words, do you really want to turn people's behavior kind of inside-out almost overnight by changing the way taxes work so quickly? >> mark, you're as plugged in as anybody in washington right now. are these guys talking to each other in a real, meaningful way? i know they put out the information that the president talked to john boehner yet, but are there real behind-the-scenes intense negotiations as we're now four weeks away from this thing? >> in talking to people so both sides yesterday, they had the identical message which is the other side isn't ready to listen yet, so we've just got to wait. that's obviously not a great environment to move things along. the optimists on both sides think we're going to get a deal, not by christmas, but by new year's. if you ask people, what's the next step? what gets things moving? it's still complicated, and nobody has a consensus on that.
the biggest challenge is how you strike a deal this year that has some things left undone for next year. and there's all sorts of people thinking about different kinds of triggers, different kind of things that say, well, if congress doesn't do x, then y kicks in, but there's no agreement on what those need to be. there's going to be more revenue, but things like entitlement reform, tax reform, those things are still very unsettled. >> so senator tom coburn yesterday on "morning joe" became the latest to break rank, saying he could support president obama's tax proposal. coburn joins a growing chorus of republicans from outside the house of representatives, urging house leadership to clear the way for a broad deal that would include tax increases on the wealthy. however, as we mentioned, according to "the new york times," speaker boehner is enjoying broad support from within his own caucus. and yesterday boehner stuck to his guns, favoring closing tax loopholes and capping deductions. to raising taxes. >> now, the revenues we're putting on the table are going
to come from, guess who? the rich. there are ways to limit deductions, close loopholes and have the same people pay more of their money to the federal government without raising tax rates which we believe will harm our economy. >> so could we just agree right now, everybody around the table, that both sides are talking about tax increases for the rich? >> i think so. >> it's just a difference between do you get tax increases for the rich? do you get the revenue by raising the top rate or by closing loopholes? i mean, that is where we are now in the debate, right? there is no difference of opinion. both sides agree that they're going to raise taxes on the rich. >> amount. there's a big difference on amount. you have $800 billion and $1.6 trillion. >> and people like you and i believe as well, we end up at $1.2 trillion in the end. >> here's what i don't -- i hear everybody -- the other positive is that both plans come in about
$2 trillion. and the difference is $800 billion and $1.6 trillion in taxes and $400 billion and $1.4 billion respective i, democrat and republican, when it comes to entitlements. it would seem to me, if steve rattner were doing a deal and we were looking at buying or selling something, we'd be in a room figuring out how you'd close that gap. coburn also said yesterday he believed in the president's idea of raising rates because he thought it would make it easier to reform the overall tax code next year. now, i disagree with both sides in how they've gone about negotiating because i think you have a frame, joe, that works. the president yesterday, i think, is right. the debt ceiling should be a part of this deal because the decisions made now and the decisions that were made six months ago impact how and why we would reach the debt ceiling come next february. so why you would endanger and imperil those decisions when this congress made those spending decisions is beyond me. you ought to put triggers in like we have now to force another kind of sequestration come september, october of next
year if they don't achieve these new entitlement savings as well as tax reform before the end of the year next year. >> you know, we've been critical -- i've been critical of this president for not reaching out over the past several years to republicans. >> you have a column. >> i have a column about it. >> in "politico." >> not reaching out aggressively enough like bill clinton, lbj, ronald reagan did. and also it was critical the first four years about him not reaching out enough to the business community. he didn't understand the business community, according to ceos who supported him for four years. but steve rattner, he's made a pretty dramatic shift since the election, and certainly i salute him for doing this, he actually is very engaged with the business community. and i'm not hearing the sort of things from top ceos and business leaders today that i heard the first four years. maybe -- maybe he's leaning in here and trying to rebuild a relationship with some of these people who supported him in '08.
>> and i think it goes both ways. i think the business community views this deficit thing as the biggest problem that we can solve that we need to solve. there's something called a campaign to fix the debt, which i'm on the steering committee, 120 leading ceos from everything from general electric to jpmorgan on down. really committed to doing something and accepting the idea that revenues have to go up, not ideological about how, but most of all, wanting a big $4 trillion package. and so they have become, in effect, allies of the president. they're really trying to get to the same place. at some point there may be differences over how much entitlements, how much this or that, but right now their interests are aligned, and they both agreed to be friends again. and so they've spent a stream of business ceos into the white house. the president -- yesterday the business roundtable and gave a very warm and accommodating speech. and they are comrades in arms, the least for the time being. >> willie, what a big difference from what we heard from business leaders for the first four years. this is a pretty dramatic shift.
>> or even just a few months ago. >> right, even a few months ago. it's positive for the president. >> let's hope that's progress, mark halperin, but if he's not, as you said a little earlier, if he's not in the room with these guys, if they're not trying to broker a deal in the way that any of us would broker a deal with the clock ticking, how does this change? how does this dynamic change? if the white house and tim geithner are saying yesterday there is no deal, forget about it without raising rates on the top 2%, who gives here? >> well, look, we've got to give the president a lot of credit for his political smarts about what would the impact be? who would win the election? he thought he was going to win and what the impact was. one is business is on his side. as joe and steve said earlier, business wants a major deficit reduction package, and most business leaders are open to it as much on the president's terms as much as republicans'. that "new york times" story on john boehner goes back to what i think is key. boehner and the president, lots of other players here, they are at the center of this. and the question is, is boehner
working towards a deal that gets him a majority in the house? i don't think that's possible. yoj the president would support that on the politics or policy. how does boehner keep enough strength to get a deal in the room with the president that he's confident he can get enough republicans to join a significant number of democrats, more democrats to pass the house. i think it's up to boehner, really, to decide, is he willing to do that? if he sticks to saying this is a republican majority deal in the house, i don't think they'll get a deal. but it's the interaction between the president and boehner with business as much on the president's side as the republicans that i think is going to make this happen. >> look, four years ago in the middle of an economic meltdown, and i think the president did a lot of things made the business community very angry. and i'm not sure they're all bad. there's a bit of a reset all around. but now it looks like -- i don't know. i just think history might look back at what he's done in quite a positive way. it remains to be seen. does that make sense? >> this issue will be the
defining issue of his second term. it's hard to imagine anything else is going to happen in his second term that's going to be as important as this. >> right. >> he wants to get it right. and don't you think, joe -- i mean, i feel -- this may be partisan -- i feel obama's got a little bit of an edge right now in this game. he's got field position over these guys. >> listen, you look at every poll, and the republicans are getting absolutely hammered. 2-1 in the poll we showed yesterday. today, again, another poll out showing that the democrats and the president are in a much stronger position. and the president could stiff-arm the gop, and he would win politically. but as you said, this is the issue of his second term. this defines his second term. and if he is defined as a guy that can't find the middle ground, that at the end of the day can't strike the deal, historians aren't going to go after eric cantor. >> right. >> and, you know, a subcommittee chairman.
they're going to remember barack obama as a man who couldn't follow through on his grand promise of 2004 and 2008. so yeah, he could win politically, but the costs, don't you agree, would be tremendous, not only to him, but to the economy and to our country. >> well, i agree. i guess i don't know, if you have a group of people basically saying this is what we're going to do, this is it, this is as far as we're going -- >> i mean, republicans have to meet in the middle. >> you just have to get it done in a graceful way and not just hammer them. >> right. you know, mika, you yourself have been talking about how they've been going on a victory tour on the sunday talk shows. >> both sides, yeah. >> both sides. >> and certainly the administration. >> and the administration gloating. i will tell you -- and i'm sure harold, you do the same tinge -- in my toughest political battles, every time i won, the bigger the victory, the more gracious i was afterwards. the more i picked up -- you know, i would pick up a phone immediately and say, you know, i didn't deserve that. i really didn't. the only reason i won was -- and
then i would go and i would do everything i could to get my political opponents a graceful way out of the corner. and i'd appoint -- i remember appointing my toughest opponent to the most important position i could appoint her to. and my mother wouldn't talk to me for a week. she wouldn't. my supporters all called me up and said you're weak, you're pathetic, how could you do this? blah, blah, blah. and i'd just say, you're right, i'm just dumb. but guess what? she was an ally the rest of my career in politics. >> that's how you get the things done. >> that's how you get it done. >> president obama's in his second term -- >> i'm not saying the president's not. >> any second-term president thinks about his legacy. i'm as encouraged that a deal will get done. the enormity of the stakes, the severity of the stakes have been articulated well on this show and elsewhere. but the fact that the president also wants to get other things done from immigration to energy,
to education, and you've got to get through this one. not to mention what we're about to get to on foreign policy issues which will serve as a backdrop for the remainder of the term. you've got to get this done to get over that hump. you've got to think the president's focused on it which is why i remain optimistic that it may get done december 20th. >> on the sunday talk shows that you're talking about, let's just strip it down. a man in negotiations does not say to another man, you're going to cave. do you say that to another man in negotiations? and you think you're going to get him to cave? >> no, sloulgabsolutely not. >> oh, please, this is all about men. come on. first of all, a woman would never think saying that because they would lactually be much moe reasonable, and something would actually get done. but if you're going to negotiate as men, you're going to have to find a way to strategically make the other side feel whole while not destroying your own ego at the same time. i didn't understand when i watched the treasury secretary saying oh, yeah, they'll cave.
that doesn't work between them. it doesn't. >> mika, listening to you speak -- >> what? >> -- one imagines that maybe you had experience growing up around strong, powerful men in washington, d.c., with egos. >> yes, perhaps. many, actually. like insufferable. >> with accents. >> it's all men. they don't know how to do it. they have to -- there's an art to it. >> i think joe's line -- >> i know, we're going to read that in "must-reads." >> the victory will cost more than it's worth, and you'll get to it, i think that's what both sides, particularly the president's got to be mindful of because you don't want to expend too much and hurt yourself as you try to do some of these other things moving forward. >> it's going to be very hard for the president -- very hard -- after winning such, i think, a great victory. i mean, this is a man who, for four years, was told that he was an illegitimate president, that he was a socialist -- >> that he was not a citizen. >> that he was a marxist, that he wasn't even an american, that
he wasn't -- you know, he said that he believed in jesus christ as his personal savior and people said no, you didn't. and he has been knocked around and treated like a second-class citizen as president of the united states by a third of the american public. and then he wins a big victory and immediately he's hearing from people like us, you've got to be gracious to those people. politics is sort of a rough and ugly game at times. >> i'm glad there are more women in washington. >> unfortunately for the president, it's going to be hard for him to now go to his people and go to his base and say i want me to drive the stake through their hearts. this is not 2009. we don't own 59 senate seats or a huge majority in the house. it requires a completely different skill set, steve, doesn't it, negotiations, which you do a different negotiation every day, and each one requires a different skill set. >> you're an elegant negotiator. >> i hope so, thank you. yeah, i agree totally. i think that's the way he's got to do it. and he's got to lead these
people with some dignity hopefully and with a feeling that everybody gave something and it was a compromise. >> exactly that. >> and you're right, he's got to get together to do that. and again, we only talk about the president because he is the key player here. republicans, obviously, have to meet him with a trillion or 1.2. >> enough to stop playing the game. all right. >> if the president is insisting on raising rates and they're insisting on not raising rates, i don't know. maybe you meet in the middle. and you get 37% and do a lot of -- you know, close a lot of loopholes. coming up, nbc news political director, chuck todd. also author and columnist julia reed. we'll get an exclusive first look at the new issue of "time" with rick stengel and andy serwer's 2013 investor guide. should apple stocks still be a buy? >> we'll also be talking, willie geist, about rex ryan and how quickly he wants to be fired. >> wow. >> can you believe that?
>> this can't go on like this. >> he's got to leave new york. up next, the top stories in the "politico playbook" with mike allen. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. [ male announcer ] when it comes to the financial obstacles military families face, we understand. at usaa, we know military life is different. we've been there. that's why every bit of financial advice we offer is geared specifically to current and former military members and their families. [ laughs ] dad! dad! [ applause ] ♪ [ male announcer ] life brings obstacles. usaa brings advice. call or visit us online. we're ready to help. bp has paid overthe people of bp twenty-threeitment to the gulf. billion dollars to help those affected and to cover cleanup costs. today, the beaches and gulf are open, and many areas are reporting
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gives you 1% cash back on every purchase plus a 50% annual bonus on the cash you earn. it's the card for people who like more cash. what's in your wallet? 25 past the hour. time now to take a look at the "morning papers." "the new york times," the obama administration secret arms shipments to qatar to help overthrow moammar gadhafi. according to "the times," some of those weapons were turned over to islamic militant groups. the support from qatar helped destabilize gadhafi's regime, but american officials remain concerned over where the arms ended up. >> "the wall street journal," egypt descending into political turmoil after another night of intense clashes on the doorsteps
of the presidential palace. it's the largest confrontation since the revolution that overthrew hosni mubarak. critics say he's rushing through a constitution with an islamic agenda. u.s. and russian senior diplomats will meet today with the united nations peace envoy for syria in an attempt to end the civil war there. this comes as pentagon sources tell nbc news there is intelligence suggesting the syrian government has loaded sarin gas into aerial bombs and awaiting command from president assad for its use. and from our parade of papers, "the san francisco chronicle," american jazz legend dave brubeck died just short of his 92nd birthday. he redefined american jazz in the 1950s and '60s, and he was a jazz pop star of sorts. "take five" became the first
jazz recording to sell over a million copies. it made jazz popular in the united states. dave brubeck dying yesterday. >> a great musician. >> little-known fact, the guy that played stand-up bass for him the last ten years, mike allen. >> is that right? >> nobody knew that. allen. yes, he plays it and spins that thing around. >> oh, i love when he does that, slaps the back of it. >> he also, for a year and a half, when the stray cats went over to london. >> mike ailen? >> stand-up bassist for the stray cats. >> the boy's got range. >> very flexible. >> stray cat strut. >> "the playbook," so much else going on. >> he also has -- a lot of people made that mistake, that were sort of around that stray cats group -- >> okay, getting old. >> -- a lot of tattoos. he wishes he could have those years back. brian seltzer. >> i wish i could have this time back. >> it was 1981, though. >> it was the thing do-to-do. he's also the chief white house
correspondent for "politico." >> he's busy! >> mike allen with a look at the "playbook." >> good morning. that strut is on youtube, so check it out. >> oh, wow. we'll have to look that up. all right, mike. you've been speaking a lot lately to senator marco rubio, had a sit-down conversation with him. i guess when you talked to him, you took another crack at that science question. clarify an answer he gave to "gq" when he was asked about the age of the earth. remember, senator rubio took a little grief, saying that he was not qualified to answer the question, calling it, quote, one of life's great mysteries. remember, i'm not a scientist, man, the whole thing. yesterday, mike, i guess you spoke to him as part of the "playbook" breakfast and you gave him a chance to explain that answer. let's listen. >> how old do you think the earth is? >> first of all, the answer i gave was trying to make the same point the president made a few years ago, and that is there is no scientific debate on the age of the earth. i mean, it's established it.
pretty definitively. at least 4.5 billion years old. i was referring to a theological debate which is a pretty healthy debate. >> mike, what did you come away with talking to marco rubio yesterday? >> people in the room came away thinking that he was really smooth, really on his game. and this is an example of that. he had that very clumsy sort of dismissive answer when he was asked by "gq" before. this is the first time senator rubio had been asked about it since then. and now he has a very clear and very sensible answer. and that there's two answers. a scientific answer, the one we know, at least 4.5 billion years, but also a theological answer. and he went on to say that we should have the freedom to teach our children both the science and the theology. it's a clear, good answer. i asked him some other tough questions. i asked him when life begins. i asked him in homosexuality is a sin. i asked him about his church. he goes to both the catholic
church in florida and his wife and children worship at a n nondenominational. >> when did he say life begins? >> he said life begins at conce conception. and he went on to not back away at all from religious teachings. he said i'm a roman catholic, and i agree totally with the teaching authority of the church. the people in the audience came up to me afterwards. and they said that what they liked about him was that he didn't dodge, weave. he was pretty declarative about these issues, which is going to play well for him. >> what about the other question, whether he thought homosexuality was a sin? >> he also had a smart, well-thought-out answer on that. he said yes, that's the clear teaching of the church, but there's a lot of things that are sins, and we shouldn't overfocus on one. he also showed -- he was quick when i asked him, we got a twitter question during the playbook breakfast. who's the best leader in washington? he instantly said rg3.
the redskins' quarterback. and at the very end when i asked him what he wanted for christmas, he said at least an 8-8 record for his miami dolphins. >> all right. >> lots of luck on that. >> real quick, mike. i was interested, one other answer, the challenge is applying our principles to the 21st century. we applied them to the 20th century, now we have to apply them to the 21st. what did he mean by that? >> he gave a speech a couple nights ago where he and paul ryan were both speaking. paul ryan mentioned poverty a dozen times. marco rubio's focusing on the middle class and economic empowerment agenda for the middle class. but when marco rubio was giving his speech, he didn't mention the word "romney" once, and there was a message in that. and that was that he's turning the page. and so that passage that you were just talking to is his idea that there's a new conservatism that can appeal to more people -- that more people in society, people in even, say,
the 47%, can be convinced that conservatives can help them. >> all right. mike allen. >> harold, would you like to crinkle up some more papers? >> i apologize. i was getting excited with this paper. learning how to fold. >> he was teaching him how to do origami. i thought it wasn't the right time. >> paper airplanes. very impressed with what i saw of marco rubio yesterday and how he handled the science question. he was light afoot. i thought he handle it had very well. >> ran the gauntlet of the mike allen primary, which is a key part of anyone getting elected president. but i'll say, you talk to republicans about 16 -- and obviously people are already talking about it -- on the broadcast on "way too early," hillary clinton, what people are auditioning for is can you beat hillary clinton? if you don't have the premise of beating her, the stature to beat her, the fund raising to beat her, republicans say, you know, no need to apply because that is right now the prism they're looking at. >> mike allen, thanks so much. get back to bass practice.
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a little sports now. a decision that has confused many. jets' head coach, rex ryan, deciding to stick with mark sanchez, or should i say return to mark sanchez, as the starter for sunday's road game against the jags. ryan also indicated greg mcelroy who led the team to the ga game-winning touchdown last week will be inactive as the number three quarterback if tim tebow is healthy enough to play. tebow said his ribs are getting better. yesterday ryan explained his choice to go with sanchez. >> at the end of the day, it's my decision, and i'm definitely comfortable with the decision. and i'm actually looking forward to seeing mark play. i believe mark has a skill set that, you know, is pretty impressive. he can make all the throws.
the thing that mark needs to do a better job of is protecting the ball. >> mark has a skill set. how is that? we've interviewed him. i like him a lot. i've cheered for him a lot. i like rex ryan a lot. great coach. took him to one game from the super bowl. >> twice. >> twice. but what he has done this year, i think requires that woody fires him. he has stuck with the worst quarterback in the nfl. and last week they bring in a guy that wins the game, and now they're not even dressing him? it's like he wants to be fired. >> and he's defensive about it. and he's stubborn about it. there's something much deeper going on. he understands football, rex ryan, so he knows objectively that mark sanchez is not getting the job done and hasn't for the last couple of years. so it defies credibility that you wouldn't at least give another guy a shot. or when you did give another guy a shot in greg mcelroy, he won
the game for you, so maybe give him a shot this week. >> i can understand saying tim tebow's not the quarterback that i want to go with, but you had mcelroy who played on a national championship team, he grew up with his father being a coach for the dallas cowboys. he gets it. he came in off the bench last week, won the game, and you're not dressing him the next week? it's like rex ryan wants to be fired. >> it's selfish also because you have to say as a coach, i want to give these other guys a chance to win. and we'll start mark, but we're going to go with the guy that can help win this game because everybody's practicing hard and we want to win which makes it even more curious because rex is a good coach. >> he's a really good coach, but i've heard he is a very stubborn man. and he knows that if he sits sanchez and the jets win games, then he looks like a fool. >> how much did they pay sanchez? 20 million more, they extended
his contract? >> yeah. >> he gets $8 million next year. >> $8.25 million next year, so he'll be back next year, no question about it. but you wonder why they brought in tim tebow -- i mean, he's covering punts at this point. >> it's horrible. >> it's not like he's the starting quarterback. remember they talked about all these packages they were going to run the ball, wildcat and all that. he's not playing at all. >> rex ryan does not want tim tebow to succeed. because if tim tebow succeeds, then rex ryan fails. rex ryan doesn't want greg mcelroy to succeed. because if mcelroy succeeds, he fails. so we have a situation here where if the team succeeds, the coach fails. they've bot to end thgot to endy should fire him before the end of the season. >> ladainian tomlinson will be going to the hall of fame, said this is unbelievable that mcelroy comes in, leads the team to the winning drive. and before the first day of practice you name mark sanchez the starter? unbelievable, says ladainian
tomlinson. >> they have got to get rex ryan out. i mean, they still have a couple of games left. you can start building for next year. let mcelroy play. i don't think tebow's the future. but certainly we know sanchez isn't. >> can't be any worse. give him a shot. when we come back, what opportunities will the near year bring for investors? andy serwer takes us through "fortune's" 2013 investor's guide.
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"fortune's" 2013 investor's guide which we'll get to in just a moment. i can't wait to see. i want to get to one "must-read opinion page." it's actually joe's. i sent him away. he's in the corner. but actually, this is really good. the president in a plastic bubble. it's a funny title, "seinfeld." if the president fails to forge a middle ground with republicans in the latest and greatest fiscal crisis, it will not be john boehner or eric cantor who will be skewered in the history books. chances are good that they will be little more than footnotes in this washington drama. instead mr. obama's penchant for personal isolation in a political system that demands the opposite will frame his presidency in the history books as one limited by his own personal isolation. make no mistake about it, barack obama will win politically by stiff-arming the third ranking public official in american government. but that victory will cost more than it's worth. the damage done will not only be to the president's legacy but also to the country he serves. and i guess, you know, there is
a good long-term point here in that if we get to a deal, that nobody is happy with, that may be better for the country down the road. the president could also win this politically. the polls are showing, harold, that if they don't get a deal, the republicans will be blamed. i'm not sure that's, though, a long-term win for the president. >> i tend to agree. i think the more both parties are credited with a deal and vice versa blamed for a deal not being done, the better it is for the total body of politic. the posturing now, we've commented on it at length, is probably necessary for both sides to go through this, but it's painful for the markets to watch. it's bewildering for the country who wonders aloud if washington remains governable. hopefully we'll do what we and they always do, which is to hammer out a deal near the end. >> you've said this morning, harold, you're optimistic a deal will get done. where does that come from? because sitting on the outside, it doesn't look like. >> rattner said it best from the outset. steve said it best from the outset.
if the president does not get off to the right start here, it makes it incredibly difficult, if not at a minimum, complicated, to get the rest of his agenda through, not to mention all the foreign policy challenges that will be the backdrop. steve indicated this is the most important thing that will be done. he's likely right unless there's something that we don't want to at all think about or foresee for the next few years, so you have to get this right or get it done to get to the next step. >> but on the specifics of it, steve, why should we be optimistic? who's going to move from their position, and why would they? >> the reasons to be optimistic, you have two prose prose propos table that are robust. the president's made important concessions on revenues. the democrats have made concessions on addressing entitlements, not insufficient for the other one, and what we're fighting over now is this issue of tax rates. and the republicans do have to give on tax rates. it's going to be long, it's going to be ugly. but i think to what we were saying before, i think the republicans know that if this goes down, it's particularly bad for them. and i think they will crack here.
>> i hope so. andy serwer, we're looking at wall street and how it reacts, and you've got your investor's guide. take us through it. >> the whole thing about investing-- and obviously everybody's paying attention to the fiscal cliff. businesspeople i've talked to at this point are saying, listen, closing loopholes, raising rates, we don't care because if there is damage done there, it's much less than not reaching a deal. so reach a deal first. we don't even care anymore about this stuff, just get it done. but in terms of investing these days, you know, it's tough out there, of course. the idea is to be a contrarian, to think different. that's the only way, really, to get ahead over the long run. we have a story about jack bogel who has a company called vanguard, now $2.2 trillion colossus that he's built up by having low-cost index funds which people can't get their brains wrapped ar eped around, a really good strategy. we have a story about apple which is kind of the stock of our time. >> we asked the question, can you continue to be obsessed with apple stock?
>> yes, i think you can. what's interesting about apple, and it's, again, sort of a contrarian position. a lot of people think the stock is really expensive because they look at the stock price, not the price relative to earnings. the stock's actually not that expensive. it has a price earnings multiple of 13 whereas a stock ge is 16. it's been down lately, a little bit more concerns than ever with android platform and new competition from samsung in phones. it's still an amazing proposition. >> whether the subsidized model will work outside of the u.s., there are real questions about apple. not as a company but as the valuation of the stock. >> yeah, i think that's right. again, you know, the stock is not super, super expensive. and people always just look at the absolute price, which is over $500. but in terms of what the company makes in terms of profits, not that expensive. >> and the fears of the post-steve jobs era, have they been allayed at this point with
the job tim cook has done? >> on one hand, yes. on the other hand, there's been more turmoil than ever in terms of management. he's let some people go, some people who haven't performed. you know, no one can replace him. >> we don't know that yet. the iphone 5 is an iteration. there needs to be one new hot product come out. >> there hasn't been a huge leap forward, that's right. >> and i love this. wall street has a new queen? >> alexander labenthal. do you remember those commercials? >> i do. an hour, hour and a half, two hours at times in my career, i heard her voice multiple times every day. >> she was this shiny young thing, she's all grown up, but her and her family had a bond company and they sold it to a bigger company. she went away into the wilderness. she's now founded her company again. >> she's men a plbeen a player while, significant in other own right. >> she's a remarkable woman.
>> municipal bonds has everything to do with things we've been talking about in terms of financial health of the states, which is not great. you have to go state by state and make sure that you know what you're doing. you know, she's obviously the biggest proponent. i wish she'd start doing those commercials again. >> exactly. >> those things were so cool. iconic. >> they were. i love her. >> andy, you've come out with top picks from star investors. technology. >> these are, again, sort of out-of-the-box picks. align makes those invisible braces for your teeth. >> invisalign. >> i was thinking of getting those, yeah. >> and those things are really huge. pentair makes water filtration systems, obviously, you know, globally. that's an incredible business right now. water is a precious commodity. public storage is exactly what it sounds like, all those storage containers. that business is mature, it's consolidating. they're the biggest player. gilead had a once-a-day hiv pill and now a once-a-day hepatitis c
pill. 4 million americans have that bad disease. finance moody's controversy because of the financial crisis, but you can't go into the bond markets without moody's, and they have a very, very strong cash flow. i don't know how steve feels about them. and then here, some of the other companies as well, utilities cms is in michigan. albany is a diversified company. large cap, ubs -- excuse me, u.s. bank is the fifth largest bank in the country, kind of an old-fashioned bank, comcast. >> comcast? got to have comcast. >> comcastic. >> did you guys p up th s put t there? is that really on there? still ahead, nbc news political director chuck todd and robert costa who says there could be trouble on the horizon for a republican senator now stepping away from his norquist pledge. really? that's coming up on "morning joe." what drives us to redefine the way we watch tv is what drives us to broadcast the world's biggest events in 3d,
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two, a little disproportionate. mccain teased you about a job you might get, and you hit him with the failure of his life. >> she interviewed me. >> welcome back to "morning joe." harold ford jr. is still here along with mark halperin in washington. with us on set, we have found out author, columnist and the most dangerous woman in america. >> absolutely. >> everything. all of it. >> julia. >> we have madeira in common and jean harris in common. >> she was a little crazy. >> absolutely beloved. >> i looked at her and, that woman -- they're going to come get her in a truck. >> uh-huh. i would say that you might have identified a little bit. but that's just me.
she was beloved there. and also in jail. she is an incredible story of what she did in jail. you want to start arguing? we can do it. >> you disagree. >> i did take one look at her and say she was nuts. my father was standing there. they introduced her on father's day. you said you like your authority. i said no, i just like my authority figures to be sane. i was so happy when i could call her up and say, guess what? >> you just shot somebody. >> i see crazy as positive. >> it was like the best thing that ever happened to me. but he did, and it was my first time on "newsweek." >> his death was your big break. >> it was one of our big family debates at the brzezinski family table. >> a debate. >> there's no debate! >> to kill someone. is there any other way of
looking at it? >> the story was, she went up there to kill herself, and he was wrestling the gun from her. they said the bullet came from eight feet away. >> from a grassy knoll. >> it happens. >> so john hui has called julia reed the most dangerous woman in america. >> and i think we know why now. >> as you guys just said, you just heard, let her keep going, right? >> right. >> hit the start button. >> he actually went out drinking with her one night, right? >> it was not my fault. >> john knows how to have a good time, too. it's not all julia's fault. >> thank you very much. i appreciate that. >> i've got your back. >> jon meacham also said the night with julia reed is not to be undertaken lightly. >> i like this. this is like a celebrity roast sitting right here. >> i'm a madeira grad. >> lovely. >> what was your senior job?
>> oh, let's see. i had a television show called m&m, the mika and melissa show. and then i worked on capitol hill. >> my father made me work for all the conservatives. i worked for jim buckley and then he lost his senate seat. and then i worked for jack kemp. we had a great time. >> in nashville, the meachams, a welcoming party. >> they're still being welcomed. al gore gave them the first one. they had a big old barbecue. al was very into the barbecuing in his backyard. >> how is al doing? >> he's having a good time. >> has he gotten over it? >> i think he's gotten over it. he's become a fine wine connoisseur. we had some very nice red wine over there. >> i bet he analyzes the chemical breakdown. >> he talks a s a little about wine. >> how's meacham doing?
>> meacham, you know, he's got this great book out. he's on the road. >> number one. >> number one. he's bringing al gore's book out in february. >> did y'all wear a lot of cardigans? >> he's become like a little country squire. he has. i gave him some slippers. he's got some really nice slippers. >> what i learned -- and i think there's some harold ford jr. in jon meacham because when jon decided he was going to move to nashville, you know what his first question was to julia? >> i'm going to quit talking to you. >> no filter. >> do you have a church home is the first thing. >> amen, brother. what church does the lord move in? because i'm going to be in that church when harold ford jr. kneels in the pew every sunday. that remains my favorite political commercial when harold ford jr. was kneeling in the
pew. born again. >> southern. >> mika, i think it's time to go to news. >> either that or we could break out the moonshine. with 25 days to go until the year-end fiscal cliff, president obama and speaker boehner spoke on the phone yesterday for the first time in days. both men agreed not to publicly characterize how the conversation went. i think that's smart. >> that's a good idea, too. >> but the stalemate in the negotiations entered new territory yesterday with, once again, treasury secretary tim geithner. >> he's got a light touch. >> he needs to step away, step away from the table. suggesting the white house is ready to go off the cliff if republicans refuse to raise taxes on the 2%. >> republicans do not agree to that. is the administration prepared to go over the fiscal cliff? >> oh, absolutely. again, there's no prospect for an agreement that doesn't involve those rates going up on the top 2% of the wealthiest
americans -- rr s -- rrm, it'emy 2%, it can't be solved. i think there's broad recognition of that reality now. >> okay, julia. see, this is the problem with men. on sunday morning geithner went on "meet the press" like they're going to cave. >> that's not good tactics for negotiations. >> get him out and get some women -- the congresswoman we had on the other day, the republican congresswoman, mcmorris rogers. sorry about that, really tired, she's fantastic. get her at the table more. get more women to the table because that's just not the way to negotiate. i agree with the administration's position on this. >> the treasury secretary yesterday goes oh, yeah. we can go over the fiscal cliff. >> don't you think that's going to make everybody feel really good, the markets. >> the republicans are doing the same thing. somebody has to be better. >> but the republicans don't have the treasury secretary.
i thought it was pretty astounding, the treasury secretary goes on bloomberg and is interviewed and said oerk, yeah, there's a really good chance we'll go over the fiscal cliff. >> i know, the way he said that was unnerving. let me tell you something. >> it's also just that egotism that everybody reacts to. >> i was in china for ten days and with a group of mayors, the mayor of philadelphia, beijing, mayor nutter. and you know, people in china are asking about the fiscal cliff. everywhere we went. what's going on with you people? so the world is watching. and it's not just us. and i don't care, maybe you think the chinese, well, too bad for them, but it's not just the chinese, it's europe, and they're blaming the fact that their economies aren't going based on the fact that we're in this stalemate. you know, it's huge. >> harold, i mean, it all comes down to leadership. you know, when you talk to business owners, they want leadership shown. i'm glad the president is talking to business leaders now. >> and a debater on the phone.
>> not only the administration but also on the other side of pennsylvania avenue with the republicans and harry reid in the senate. you're just not seeing it. >> you don't see enough of it. curiously, the markets -- investors are actually increasing their exposure which is kind of contrarian to your point. i do believe to julia's point, you'll see a receding or retreat in that attitude over the next several days and few week ifs we can't get ourselves closer. i remain optimistic. the president wants a legacy and his legacy depends on this. and two proposals have been put forth. they resemble each other in terms of the amount they've asked for. i give republicans credit. they understand revenue has to be part of the deal. the question remains whether it's marginal rates or limiting deductions. adults should be able to come together and get that deal done. >> what happens here in the short term and long term. the short-term thing's not going to be much of a solution. >> no, i don't think so. and mark halperin, you talk about these deals possibly being $2 trillion. we went $5 trillion in debt over
the past four or five years. another $5 trillion in debt over the next four to five years. so this country's gone $10 trillion in debt, and we're only cutting $2 trillion over the next decade! we are losing ground fast. and we can't even do a small deal like this. >> first of all, i want to say john huey understated it when he said julia was the most dangerous woman in america. look, the dirty little secret about all this is, you never want to do debts to reduction when the economy is bad. it's a lot easier when the economy is growing, more tax receipts coming in, lower spending. i think the current level is just enough. the current level they're going for is just enough to get a deal and then have confidence restored and have robust economic growth. then we get deficit reduction and it's a lot easier to do. i think the number is just enough, as i said, but it's still hard to get to. and it's going to require the business community coming in and saying to republicans in both the senate and the house, there's a lot of stuff in here we don't like, a lot of special interests won't like it, but the
business community at large, particularly big business, saying this needs to get done and needs to get done before new year's eve. >> just do it. >> just do it. all right. >> all right. >> failure is not an option. >> it's not. it really isn't. hillary clinton may insist she's leaving politics, but a new poll shows the majority of americans hoping she has a change of heart. the latest abc news/"washington post" poll shows 57% would vote for clinton in a 2016 presidential bid. 37% oppose of a potential campaign. clinton also has strong support in her home state of new york. in a siena college poll, 64% of new york voters say she should make a run, but new yorkers aren't as enthusiastic about their current governor jumping into the race. just 39% support a cuomo 2016 presidential bid. a little early. >> it is early. >> i think she will. i think she will. >> have you ever seen a clinton, julia reed, pass up an election
in which they're eligible to run in? >> were you shaking your head a little bit? >> no, no. and i think she'll run. >> yeah. >> again, over in china, that was a big question. >> stop. >> no, seriously. >> no, i get asked everywhere. >> is hillary going to run? >> absolutely. >> really? >> yep. they know who she is big time. >> biden. >> suppose she makes the decision and decides to run, you paralyze the democratic side. no donors are going to move, rightly so, because they want to find out -- >> and it completely influences the republican side because they're going to have to get somebody that can raise a bunch of money -- >> that's what mike allen said earlier. the only thing that matters is how do you go against her? how can you beat her? >> that's the only litmus test. >> mark halperin, you had said that last hour. the prism that republicans are viewing potential candidates, whether it's marco rubio or jeb bush or anybody else, can you beat hillary clinton? >> you know, i mean, it's just incredible. this is, i think, going to be my
seventh presidential cycle. i've never seen a cycle like this setting up this way where she really is not just in her own party but in the race overall. i don't like, as you know, you tried to get me to talk about "game change 2." "game change 3," working title, the coronation. >> exactly. >> president obama has not been sworn in yet for his second term, and we're already having polls showing. >> people are talking. people are talking. >> it's amazing how compressed these cycles are. >> this is all chatter and nonsense except for the fact that you already have three governors talking to sheldon adelson who said he's going to give more money next cycle than this cycle. and you've got other people running out there setting themselves up right now. marco rubio, for instance, is setting himself up to run in 2016. >> well, in order to do that, yesterday he took a second crack at science, clarifying a statement that marco rubio -- >> i wish i could take a second
crack. you keep me in the liberal arts building, i'm going to get an "a." and i could even drink as much as julia. >> oh, my lord. >> and still get an "a." this has got to end. but i'll tell you, when you and huey, i could get an "a," but you get me in science class or math class, ooh, ugly. >> rubio gave a very interesting answer to "gq" last month when asked about the age of the earth. and he took some grief for it because he said, in part, that he was not qualified to answer the question. >> actually, he said, i'm not a scientist. >> calling it "one of life's great mysteries." at a "politico" breakfast yesterday, mike allen gave the senator a chance to explain that answer. >> so how old do you think the earth is? >> first of all, let me tell you about the answer i gave. the answer i gave was trying to make the same point the president made a few years ago. and that is there is no scientific debate on the age of the earth. i mean, it's established pretty
definitively. it's at least 4.5 billion years old. i was referring to a theological debate which is a pretty healthy debate. >> well, he's a scientist now. he went on -- he did, he carbon dated it. >> got some rocks. >> got some rocks. it's 4.5 billion years old. >> at least. >> let's explain what's important, julia. because republicans have been acting like crackpots for the past 20 years, trying to win the primaries in a couple of states where crackpots control the primaries. and it's nice when you have a guy going, okay, i'm not scared of science. his first answer was so baffling -- >> i mean, it's still a fine line these guys have got to walk, though. he's got to pretend -- or not pretend, wron what he beliei do believes, but he's still got to pander to the crackpots a little tiny bit. >> i absolutely love nicole
wallace's comment to me a couple of months ago when we were talking about how the republicans -- off camera -- were going to get killed this year. you know, i am so sick and tired of the debate on whether we should be the conservative party or the moderate party. i just don't want to be the stupid party. >> the crazy party. >> the crackhead party. >> the crackhead party. and maybe we're getting there. but there is a fine line. mark halperin, when you're afraid to answer how old scientists think the earth is, perhaps you're running for a crowd that's not going to elect the next president of the united states. >> look, all these republicans we're talking about, rubio, bobby jindal, all the others, paul ryan, they all have some strengths. they're all now talking -- the smarter ones are talking about how to remake the party standing up to the other party a little bit. the reason why the hillary clinton thing is such a big challenge, there's no doubt about hillary. can she raise the money? is she well known? does she have good relationships
with her party? does she have appeal across the aisle? yes to everything. and all these republicans have to prove themselves within the republican party but also do the things you and nicole wallace talked about, which is appeal to hispanics, broaden the base of the party, build an organization, raise money, all these things. it's an extraordinary task. and while it is early, if you're going up against hillary clinton, the absolute presumption in this city, in china, lots of other places, you've got a huge project. four years isn't enough time if she runs. >> the real beneficiary on the republican side, your reaction to mrs. clinton being the front-runner, is jeb bush. >> two rules families. >> i'm very excited, a quarter century later -- a quarter century later, this time it's personal. >> did you see matt dredge's tweet about this? >> no, what did he say? >> he said he wants to skip over hillary versus jeb and go right to george p. and chelsea.
>> that's going to happen. julia, i'll tell you who i've been impressed with since the election -- and we had sort of a rocky relationship with him, your governor, bobby jindal. we had some problems with him in the past and thought that he was giving pad answers. >> no, i've seen him on the show a few times. believe you me, my expectations were fairly low coming from louisiana. as my governor, i still think you mean haley. >> you're in new orleans now, but we've been really impressed by bobby since -- >> he's running, but, you know, i mean, it's still -- you know, imagine, okay, bobby jindal, really, versus hillary clinton? >> yeah. >> oh, my goodness. >> just pick immigration and turn the mindset for the republican party there, and they could be the immigration party. >> they had a shot. they had a shot a while ago. >> that's what jeb is good on. >> bobby's important in this conversation now because you
keep it serious. whether he's the one or not, i don't know, but at least he's a serious talker. four years ago you had sarah palin and others who talked -- >> even bobby's grown into that because when he first -- you know, when he first came on this show, he was a little dweebie and inarticulate and not as brave. >> that's the thing, he was not as brave. since the election, he's been brave enough to show himself. >> it's been nice to watch this transformation because with palin, at the time you're sitting there oh, please, don't say something crazy. >> can i just say, as a republican, what a rough 20 years or so it's been watching debates? i loved bush 41, but i'll tell you what, he was horrible in debates. >> no, you had to hold your breath all the time. >> and then bob dole, you had to hold your breath. and george w., good old guy, but that guy had trouble with the english language. >> you're going up against bubba. the best on the planet. >> it would be nice to have
somebody -- >> no, that's why it was so sad when people like mitch daniels and haley didn't go in this time because they sound like churchill compared. >> guess who i just got an e-mail from? alexandra liebenthal. how exciting. julia, stay with us. >> jean just e-mailed me. >> you're a bad man. i mean, you really are. >> bad to the bone. >> we should do a segment. >> yeah. >> like the conversation we had at the dinner table. and you all have to listen. >> i have no idea what you're talking about. you wrote this past month. did you make your deadline? >> you know, again -- >> david. >> we love david. >> we love david. >> the magazine's awesome. it came with an ax. >> oh. >> i bought it for my mom for
christmas. >> that was sweet. >> she'll use it. >> chop up. >> you have no idea. >> actionable. you know what i mean? >> the new issue of "fortune" magazine is the 2013 investor's guide. coming up next, senator saxby chambliss says he's not bound by the norquist anti-tax pledge he signed years ago, but will saxby pay a political price? with us, robert costa joins us, also nbc political director, chuck todd. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks.
the disabled, with the support of war heroes and senate elder statesmen. in a world gone mad, america can lead and reclaim its exceptional moral authority. >> they needed 66 votes of the treaty, two-thirds of the senate, and it failed. >> or we could [ bleep ] bed. how did that fail? what is wrong with you people? how did this happen? >> 38 republicans voted no. >> to vote for anything that is even perceived to be granting the u.n. power is a dangerous game for a republican senator because the u.n. is so unpopular among the republican base. >> oh, my god. it's official. republicans hate the united nations more than they like helping people in wheelchairs. >> with us now from washington, nbc news chief white house correspondent and political director and host of "the daily rundown," chuck todd.
with us here on the set, writer for "the national review" online, bob costa. robert, thank you so much for being with us today. >> good to join you. >> hey, chuck, so we're having a debate here. yesterday we had matt lewis, well-known conservative, guy that we really like, saying that john boehner was weaker than ever. "the new york times" today, not as well beloved in conservative circles, how boehner gained strong backing from the house gop. a lot of really good sources in there. what's your take on boehner's positioning right now? where does he stand compared to last year when he always felt like eric cantor was breathing down his neck? >> to me, that's what's changed. it depends on how you want to define strength or weakness. are there more grumbling rank-and-file conservatives about boehner? yes. it's still a small chunk of people. are eric cantor and kevin mccarthy trying to take
advantage of this? no. not at all. they are speaking as one with john boehner. so that's, i think, the big difference is that boehner, cantor, mccarthy, throw paul ryan in there, this is a quartet that is moving as one, negotiating as one. there's no, none of this looking over the shoulder. on the leadership side, it's a much different story. yes, it really depends on how you want to try to view it. can you find more rank-and-file conservative republicans who are sort of not in the circle? yes. to complain. but there's no -- there's no alternative. >> bob, you, yesterday, shadowed grover norquist for quite some time. you went to the meeting, his wednesday meeting. >> that's right. >> he has all the time with some of the most powerful conservatives in d.c. and across the country attending. what was their attitude about
any deal that boehner might have to make? >> it's pretty interesting when you talk to house republicans because they look at boehner from two different perspectives. on one side, boehner went in front of the house conference and he said, i'm not going to back any deal that increases rates. so they feel pretty confident on rates. that's where i think "the new york times" comes from. on rates they think boehner is still with house conservatives. at the same time, there's a lot of raised eyebrows right now because just as boehner is promising not to buckle on rates, he's purging four conservatives from committee. >> i was going to ask you about that. now, newt, and bob livingston tried that with mark newman back in '95. that didn't work out well for him. we said we're going to vote against every appropriations bill that you put up now. and the next day, mark newman was back on the appropriations committee. it seems to me this is a dangerous game boehner's playing, punishing conservatives for voting with their conscience. >> mark halperin had a good point earlier, this vote will probably take two votes if there's a deal struck on the fiscal cliff. i think boehner is trying to exert control. leaders try to exert control
before these votes happen. sometimes weeks before. so this was a warning to house conservatives, that if you go against leadership and a deal is struck, there are going to be consequences. >> yeah. so chuck todd, let's talk about the other side of pennsylvania avenue. the president of the united states yesterday speaking with john boehner. and they wisely decided not to characterize that phone call, thank god for the sake of america. and the world. also, you had tim geithner. good god. >> he didn't say anything he hasn't said before. >> geithner on the sunday shows was saying oh, yeah, the republicans are going to back down. they're going to cower in the corner, tremble and whatever. and then yesterday he said we're going to go over the cliff if republicans don't do what we want. i'm curious, what's the white house attitude right now? are they willing to go over the cliff? is geithner right?
>> are they willing to go over the cliff? i guess they are, but they also don't believe republicans are going to go over the cliff. you talk to them internally, they're 100% convinced, if anything, i've talked to -- you know, if anything, republicans may have backed into leverage all of a sudden. because i did talk to some democrats who are suddenly fearing the tom cole strategy in this respect. that the republicans basically do the minimum -- meet the president's minimum demands past the extension for middle-class tax rates, and that's it, right? you know, and they buy down the sequester, delay that. and essentially say all right, buddy, see you in february. we'll do the standoff then on debt ceiling, and we'll talk the bigger thing on rates. we'll talk the issue on entitlements. because suddenly the leverage -- the political leverage, you know, that's not great for the
economy, but if you're just talking pure politics, that could be the best political decision for the republicans to make to regain leverage on this. >> chuck, don't you think if republicans strike that deal, they'll have primary problems? >> it becomes -- it depends on how it's struck. it depends if it becomes a, we can't deal with this guy, the white house wants to drive over the cliff, we have no choice, we're not going to do it, and it still would be a minority of probably the republicans. and you saw -- did you see the dave camp news? dave camp, ways and means, throwing out the possibility that you would have -- it's not just two votes. you could have two bills. so everybody gets to vote for an extension to everything. and the senate ignores it. then the house votes on something that extends the middle-class tax rates and then maybe either puts the top 2% rate all the way back to clinton or passes something that goes to 37%, hands it over to the senate and says, i dare you not to pass
that. >> you could make this argument on capitol hill, but when you're at grover norquist's meeting and talking to conservative house members, they're not able to go back to their districts and make some convoluted argument on rates. >> they won't have to vote for it. they'll never vote for it. >> you need to find the tom cole caucus. >> that's right. >> i will say just strategically -- and man, i was in one of those districts where you didn't want to vote to raise taxes on anybody. go home. you wouldn't be able to go to little league baseball games for a while. >> saxby chambliss is making noise. >> i will tell you, though, chuck, strategically, you take taxes for the rich off the table for the white house, you put the white house and democrats in a terrible position because you and i know, when we discussed it yesterday, raising taxes on the top 2%, that does nothing to take care of the debt problem.
it takes care of the democrats' political problem. tax the rich. tax the rich. we tax the rich. everything will be fine. if we don't tax the ruch, locusts will descend from the heavens. that's all they do. that's all they've been doing for ten years. after 9/11 we should have had sacrific sacrifice, but bush cut taxes on the rich. everything is about bush tax cuts. >> my favorite montage that we put together one time was during both the '04 presidential democratic primaries and the '08 democratic primaries, every single presidential candidate, at one point, from hillary clinton to barack obama, from john kerry to john edwards, all of them, they all played for their plan with this simple phrase, "rolling back the bush tax cuts." they've been doing it for eight years. so politically, that's why the president has to draw that line in the sand. >> he draws that line in the sand, but harold ford, what happens when republicans, at least a small number of them, go
ahead and raise taxes on the top 2% and then turn to the white house and say, okay. now we'll move. and then they have to talk about how they're going to slash spending in medicare, to save medicare, how they'll have to slash spending in medicaid to save medicaid. their political problem on the other side of this tax debate is so much bigger than the republican problem. they're being too clever by half here. >> both sides have complicated hands. and if the democrats, we achieve what the president and some democrats in the senate are asking for in a narrow way around taxes, you're absolutely right. just as an aside on the bush era, this is the first time we didn't go to war where we didn't pay for it. some of the things the democrat said, not just taxes. you said that. >> which is why i'm glad that president obama had the courage to end the bush tax cuts two years ago -- oh, wait a second. i'll tell you what. you know what? >> i agree with you.
>> extended them for two more years, but at least now he's got the nerve, the courage to do what democrats have been saying all along, and end the bush -- oh, wait a second. no. he's actually keeping 98% of them. huh. >> look, he's keeping it for 98% of the country. i happen to agree. you know, i'm a supporter of the simpson-bowles approach, but we are where we are right now. and i think to chuck's point, this may make it -- and to your point -- and they may get to a point where this is very uncomfortable for democrats. again, $2 trillion, both are asking for that, it with certainly get us through the year, avoid sequestration, avoid the pain that many in the business community are concerned about. if we start growing again, imagine how easy this conversation will be next year if the economy is growing at 3% to 4%. >> yes, and the spirit of jack kemp rises from the table of "morning joe." >> growth. it's always growth. but joe and harold, the fact is,
the white house ought to wake up and realize that watch out for republicans, they're not going to go over the cliff. you can put a gun to their head, and they'll give you this middle-class tax extension, but you will then not get your grand bargain on, say, 65% of your term. and that's the leadership mistake, and that, to me, would be a political missed opportunity for this white house. >> because everybody in the media and in washington, d.c., is allowing this white house and the democratic party to frame this debate around tax cuts. for the rich. which actually have so little to do with the bigger problems, chuck. so you're exactly right. if republicans give the president what he wants and then walks away, he's got to figure out how to save medicare. he's got to figure out how to save medicaid. he's got to figure out how to save the country. that's kind of a heavy lift, isn't it? >> it -- and more importantly, i mean, this is the moment for the
grand -- you put this off to february on the debt ceiling and you know what? it's a leadership failure. >> all right. bob costa, you write about my good friend, saxby chambliss. you call him taxby. >> that's what conservatives are calling him. tom price, paul brown, a lot of congressmen, former secretary of state. >> paul brown. >> paul brown, he's thinking about it. he told me he's not ruling it out, chuck. >> that will be entertaining. >> okay. thank you. >> paul brown. >> dr. paul brown. thank you so much, bob. thank you, chuck. greatly appreciate it. coming up next, we're going to be revealing the cover of "time" magazine with rick stengel when we return. [ male announcer ] there are plenty of reasons to be jolly
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ooh, look at that pretty shot of reagan national airport in washington, d.c., as the sun comes up over washington. joining us now, "time" magazine managing editor rick stengel here with the latest issue of "time." who's on the cover in >> for the first time we've had a sitting sports commissioner on the cover, the enforcer, roger goodell, commissioner of the nfl. it's pegged, of course, to the tragic circumstance of the belcher murder/suicide which commissioner goodell talked to us about. but the larger issue is when football is at an all-time high of popularity, by far america's most favorite sport, there are things that are threatening it. you know, the head injuries that lead to concussions, that lead to brain damage. the fact that young boys are playing competitive football less than they used to.
the game is incredibly successful, yet goodell has great challenges. and i would say that he has been very forthright and a stand-up guy in confronting these issues in a way that the nfl hasn't before. >> you know, things are getting so much more dangerous in the nfl. jim miklaszewski was talking about how he was -- used to be a reporter down in dallas. and one day he was out with the cowboys. and he saw tom landry out on the field. you know, the players were getting bigger, running faster, hitting harder. and tom landry said, this isn't the game that i started coaching. it's getting too dangerous. somebody's going to get killed. and it has gotten so much more dangerous. >> well, one of the things that he's trying to do is, you know, he's looked at the areas where it is most dangerous. the single most dangerous area of professional football are kickoffs. so they're actually looking at revising that, of changing the formu
formula. so one of the things that he talks about in the article is this proposal that after a touchdown, the team that got the touchdown can take the ball out on their own 30 and have fourth and 15, have the option of having fourth and 15th on their own 30 and either going for it or punting, which is a really radical and different idea. and one of the things that goodell says in the piece to shawn gregory who did a great job, saying, you know, it really made me rethink how football works. and i think the fact that he's actually thinking of such radical changes is only, you know, to the benefit of the game. >> you know, the helmet-to-helmet hits, harold, are just ghastly. they're absolutely ghastly at this point. for these guys as big and fast and powerful as they are. and you keep hearing these tragic stories about guys either leaving the game or in the middle of the game killing themselves because something is happening to nfl players. >> you said it at the outset, they're bigger, they're faster, they're stronger. and it's amazing a guy 280 pounds can run a 4.5 or 4.6 40,
and you collide with guys weighing 200 pounds who can run a 3.4 40. i'm interested in reading the total piece, and i think goodell has been an innovatoinnovator. he's thought deep about how these changes may not only affect the game but these current players. because at the end of the day, these are human beings, and you've got to be mindful of the fact that we watch them play football, but they have families, they have lives to live. i have friends who have sons who are reluctant to allow their sons to play football growing up. you see that. the changes he makes now will impact this game for the good. >> he's looking ten years out, 20 years out. he wants to keep the game robust, keep it america's pastime. and obviously, he wants to keep participation high because that will keep popularity high. >> we come from the football capital of the country, the south, where it's a ritual. but, i mean, i have friends in the south whose kids don't play. >> let me tell you, i played football from the time i was 8 years old, from 8 to 18.
it was my life. we watched, you know, s.e.c. football every saturday. sunday. >> they have helmets when you played? >> yeah, they did. >>letter? >> yeah, they were leather. >> that explanation's out the door. >> watched nfl on sunday. it was our life. but i will tell you, i did not ever really want my kids to play football. it's gotten too dangerous. >> scary. >> we're going to have to reexamine what we do. >> to hear big football fans like you guys say shows that t real issue. >> not only big football fans but, you know, 6'4". i weigh way too much. i still don't know that i would -- >> 5'11". >> yeah. see, you get broken in half on the field. >> what do you run the 40 in? >> i used to run it in four seconds. no more, though. >> i want to know -- >> i can't even walk the 40 anymore. >> so, anyway, the question is, how does the nfl respond to a tragedy like the one that was
visited on the kansas city chiefs this past weekend? in fact, the piece opens, goodell had i thought a very reasonable, reasoned, measured response. he talked to everybody. he talked to the players. he talked to the coaches. he talked to the owners. again, there was the debate about whether you postpone the game. he made the decision and it was his that in fact the most healing thing that could be done was to actually play the game. have the players get out there and they had an amazing performance and won on sunday and i don't think anybody is looking back and thinking he made the wrong decision about that. >> you know, it is interesting. that reminds me of the pete roselle interview years after jfk's assassination. he said, he should have just canceled all the games on sunday. in this case goodell said, play on. but there is a connection between roselle and goodell. it's fascinating. >> yes. in the story he talks about how goodell actually went into the nfl and was sort of rising up the ranks and there was an opportunity to be pete roselle's driver and he put up his hand
for it and he said, i feel like i could learn more being pete's driver than being at a -- an assistant vice president for operations. >> that was a smart move. >> he talks in the piece about how much he learned from pete. you know, the other person who influenced him greatly was his dad, who was a u.s. senator from new york, charlie goodell, a liberal republican senator who took that seat after robert kennedy was assassinated. he really reveres his father. >> yeah. really quickly, julia, he's not going to be invited to new orleans any time soon for mardi gras parade is he? >> you know, i'll probably not be able to go home again. i think he did the right thing in new orleans but removing the coach temporarily and that kind of stuff but, no, he is not beloved. >> loathed. >> not beloved. >> as he says in your piece, i love this quote they have. if you want to do the popular thing be a cheerleader. >> oh, great. >> that's a great one. >> okay. the new cover is "the enforcer." how far will nfl commissioner roger goodell go to protect the game he loves?
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♪ hello old friend >> looking ahead to tomorrow, oh, yeah. david axelrod. >> my goodness. >> it's over. he takes it off. he'll join us onset to talk politics and lose his 40-year-old mustache. >> you know -- >> i'm shaving it off. >> steve stepped up and put us over a million. i love it. >> no filter. coming up next treasury secretary timothy geithner draws a line in the sand saying the white house absolutely is ready to go over the fiscal cliff. where do negotiations go from there? keep it right here on "morning joe."
good morning. it's 8:00 on the east coast 5:00 a.m. on the west coast. time to wake up, everybody. welcome back to "morning joe." take a live look at new york city. back with us onset we have harold ford. >> he is a professor. >> yes, he is. >> hard to believe. >> and a former member of congress. >> yes. >> steve rattner. >> he is a financier. >> yes he is. >> also hard to believe. >> and mark halperin in washington. >> he is a secret agent. won't tell us who he is meeting with. >> so cagey.
>> boy, there are some stories here. unbelievable. you're talking about libya and i tell you what. you've got assad about to cross that red line and he's going to see russia leaving quick. i think he'll see even troops going in there if he starts using chemical weapons against his own people. morsi in trouble, egypt. the biggest revolt since mubarak was pushed out of power. the "new york times" also has another fascinating story. john boehner gains strong backing of the house gop. they actually say the speaker is more powerful today than he has been since he became speaker two years ago. >> well, that is exactly the opposite of what we were discussing yesterday on the set with matt lewis. >> and i guess one question, is that story there for a purpose, which is to make him appear stronger? and also, is he strong in relation to the offer that's on the table which is an offer that does not reflect compromise yet? >> well, he is strong i think as long as he is not seen as bowing down and caving in to the
president. but i will tell you, there are conservatives, eric erickson, for instance, who is actively trying to get him removed as speaker saying they only need 16 votes to vacate the chair and drive john boehner out of town. the situation is best described as very fluid right now. >> how many degrees of freedom does he have from where he is now and who is holding the pen when they sign those letters? >> yeah. i don't think he has a lot of freedom. do you? >> i hope he stays strong for the simple reason that if and when the deal is close to being done he has authority and influence within that caucus to bring a critical mass that may be needed to create a majority. i also think it's good in the political process for leaders to be strong. i won't always agree and probably find myself disagreeing with john a lot more in policy but if he's weak and the president is strong and you reverse the party structure, you know, it's hard to make deals
and forge compromise and create progress when you have that kind of scenario. so i hope the article is more accurate than not. >> all right. well, with 25 days to go until the year end, fiscal cliff deadline, president obama and speaker boehner spoke on the phone yesterday for the first time in days. both men agreed not to publicly characterize how the conversation went. but the stalemate in negotiations entered new territory yesterday with treasury secretary timothy geithner suggesting the white house is ready to go off the cliff if republicans refuse to raise taxes on the 2%. >> if republicans do not agree to that, is the administration prepared to go over the fiscal cliff? >> absolutely. again, there is no prospect to an agreement that doesn't involve those rates going up on the top 2% of the wealthiest americans. remember, only 2%. the size of the problem in some sense is so large it can't be solved without -- i think there is very broad recognition of
that reality now. >> one fall back option republicans are reportedly considering is to accept tax cuts for the middle class, allow rates to go up for the wealthiest, and then start the fight all over again during debt limit talks early next year. yesterday at a business round table of ceos president obama took a hard line warning his opponents not to consider this strategy. >> if congress in any way suggests they're going to tie negotiations to debt ceiling votes and take us to the brink of default once again, as part of a budget negotiation, which by the way we have never done in our history until we did it last ye year, i will not play that game. >> i wonder. the president is saying, steve, that, you know what? we can raise rates now and maybe lower them later, next year, so republicans are now saying we'll raise rates now.
maybe we'll lower them later and talk about it during debt ceiling. now he is saying no we're not going to talk about it then either. when would we have this debate, when we are renaming post offices in july? i mean -- >> clarify something for people that are watching. republicans are talking about raising taxes on the rich. john boehner said that yesterday. we're just not talking about raising the top marginal rate. right? >> right. >> both sides are now talking about raising taxes on the rich just two different ways. >> yeah. i think that was actually an interesting comment of boehner's and i think put another fine point on what they had been saying and a concession that the tax money, whether $800 billion, a trillion two, a trillion six, it is going to come from wealthy people. so now we're arguing about how does it come from wealthy people? you have this divide between i think very strong ideological position on the republican side, not rates, and somewhat ideological somewhat practical position on the obama side saying we can't get to a
trillion six without doing rates. we aren't going to get to a trillion six so it becomes a little academic. >> can we get to 1.2 trillion where you think and i think and other people think we're going to end up without raising the rates? >> you can do it mathematically. it works. you know, you can write laws that do it. the question you have to say to yourself, do you want to start eliminating charitable deductions for state and local taxes, for charitable, health care, retirement funds? in other words do you really want to turn people's behavior inside out almost overnight by changing the way taxes work so quickly? >> you're as plugged in as anybody, mark, to washington right now. are these guys talking to each other in a real, meaningful way? i know they put out the information that the president talked to john boehner yesterday but are there real behind-the-scenes intense negotiations going on as we're now less than four weeks away from this thing? >> in talking to people on both sides yesterday they had the identical message which is the other side isn't ready to listen.
they're not ready to listen yet so we have to wait until they're ready to listen. that is obviously not a great environment to move things along. the optimists on both sides think we're going to get a deal not by christmas but by new year's. if you ask people, democrats and republicans, what's the next step, what gets things moving, it's still complicated and nobody has a con sensense -- consensus on that. the biggest challenge is how do you strike a deal for this year that has some things undone for next year? people are thinking about different kinds of triggers and things that say, well, if congress doesn't do x then y kicks in but there is no agreement on what those need to be. there is going to be more revenue but the things like entitlement reform, tax reform, those things are still very unsettled. >> so, senator tom coburn yesterday on "morning joe" became the latest to break rank saying he could support president obama's tax proposal. coburn joins a growing chorus of republicans from outside the house of representatives urging house leadership to clear the way for a broad deal that would
include tax increases on the wealthy. however, according to the "new york times" speaker boehner is enjoying broad support from within his own caucus and yesterday boehner stuck to his guns favoring closing tax loop holes and capping deductions to raising taxes. >> now, the revenues we're putting on the table are going to come from, guess who? the rich. there are ways to limit deductions, close loop holes, and have the same people pay more of their money to the federal government without raising tax rates, which we believe will harm our economy. >> so could we just agree right now everybody around the table, both sides are talking about tax increases for the rich. >> i think so. >> it's just a difference between do you get tax increases for the rich, do you get the revenue by raising the top rate? or by closing loop holes? i mean, that is where we are now in the debate, right? there is no difference of opinion.
both sides agree that they're going to raise taxes on the rich. >> there is a big difference on amount. you have 800 billion and 1.6 billion. >> people like you, and i believe as well, we end up at 1.2 trillion -- >> what i don't hear, everybody, another positive is both plans come in about 2 trillion. the president's plan is 2 trillion and the republicans are 2 to 2.2 trillion. the difference is $800 billion and 1.6 trillion in taxes and 400 billion and 1.4 billion respectively democrat/republican when it comes to entitlement. it would seem to me a conversation, if steve rattner were doing a deal and we were looking at buying or selling something we'd be in the room figuring out how you close that gap. coburn also said yesterday he believed in the president's idea of raising rates because he thought it would make it easier to reform the overall tax code next year. i disagree with both sides how they went about negotiating. i think you have a frame, joe, that works. the president yesterday is right. the debt ceiling should be part of this deal because the
decisions made now and the decisions made six months ago impact how and why we reach the debt ceiling next february. why would you endanger and imperil those decisions when this congress made those decisions? it's beyond meechlt you ought to put triggers in like we have now to force another sequestration come september/october of next year if they don't achieve the new entitlement savings as well as tax reform before the end of the year next year. >> we've been critical. i've been critical of this president for not reaching out over the past several years to republicans. >> you have a column in politico. >> i have a column about it. not reaching out aggressively enough like bill clinton, lbj, ronald reagan did. and also was critical the first four years about him not reaching out enough to the business community. he didn't understand the business community according to ceos who supported him for four years. but steve, he has made a pretty dramatic shift since the election and certainly salute him for doing this. he actually is very engaged with
the business community and i'm not hearing the sort of things from top ceos and business leaders today that i heard the first four years. maybe he's leaning in here and trying to rebuild a relationship with some of these people who supported him in '08. >> i think it goes both ways. i think the business community views this deficit thing as the biggest problem that we can solve, that we need to solve. there is something called a campaign to fix the debt which i'm on the steering committee, 120 leading ceos from -- everything from general electric to jp morgan on down. really committed and doing something and accepting the idea that revenues have to go up. not ideological about how they go up but wanting entitlement reform, most of all wanting a big, $4 trillion package. so they have become in effect allies of the president really trying to get to the same place. at some point there may be differences over how much entitlements and how much this and that.
right now their interests are aligned and they've both agreed to be friends so there's been a stream of business ceos into the white house. the president, yesterday had the business round table and gave a very warm and accommodating speech. and they are comrades in arms at least for the time being. >> willie, what a big difference from what we heard from business leaders for the first four years. >> oh, yeah. >> this is a pretty dramatic shift. >> or even a few months ago. >> it's positive. >> let's hope that's progress, mark halperin. if he is not as you said a little bit earlier, if he is not in the room with these guys, if they're not trying to broker a deal in the way any of us would broker a deal with the clock ticking, how does this change? how does this dynamic change? if the white house and timothy geithner saying yesterday there is no deal, forget about it without raising rates on the top 2%, who gives here? >> well, look. you've got to give the president a lot of credit for his political smarts about what would the impact be. who would win the election he thought he was going to win and what the impact of winning was. business on his side as joe
suggested earlier, business wants this deal. business wants a major deficit reduction package and most business leaders are open to it as much on the president's terms as on the republicans'. that very nuanced "new york times" story on john boehner goes back to what i think is still the key. boehner and the president, there are lots of other players here, they are at the center of this. and the question is, is boehner working toward a deal that gets a majority of the majority in the house? i don't think that is possible. i don't think the president would support that deal on the politics or the policy, so how does boehner keep enough strength to get a deal in the room with the president that he's confident he can get enough republicans to join a significant number of democrats, more democrats to pass the house. i think it's up to boehner to decide is he willing to do that? if he sticks to saying this is a republican majority deal in the house i don't think they'll get a deal but it is the interaction between the president and boehner with business as much on the president's side as the republicans that i think is going to make this happen. >> look, four years ago in the middle of an economic meltdown, i think the president did a lot
of things that made the business community very angry. and i'm not sure they're all bad. there is a bit of a reset all around but now it looks like, i don't know. i just think history might look back at what he's done in quite a positive way. remains to be seen. does that make sense? >> this issue is going to be the defining issue of the second term. it is very hard to imagine anything else is going to happen to the second term that is going to be as important as this. he wants to get it right. don't you think, joe, i feel and this may be partisan, i feel obama has kind of got a little bit of an edge right now in this game. he's got field position over these guys. >> listen, you look at every poll and the republicans are getting absolutely hammered, 2-1 in the poll we showed yesterday. today, again, another poll out showing that the democrats and the president are in a much stronger position. and the president could stiff arm the gop and he would win politically. but as you've said, this is the
issue of his second term. this defines his second term and if he is defined as a guy that can't find the middle ground, that in the end of the day can't strike the deal, historians aren't going to go after eric canter. >> right. >> and, you know, a subcommittee chairman. they're going to remember barack obama as a man who couldn't follow through on his grand promise of 2004 and 2008. so, yeah. he could win politically but the cost, don't you agree, would be tremendous? not only to him but to the economy and to our country. >> well, i agree. i guess i don't know if you have a group of people basically saying this is what we're going to do, this is it, this is as far as we're going -- >> the republicans have to meet in the middle. >> you just have to get it done in a graceful way and not just hammer them. >> when we come back there are more than 7 billion people on this planet and "forbes" magazine has compiled a new list of the most powerful people who truly run the world. we'll go through this year's top
power players with "forbes" editor randall lane. also joining us editor of "national memo" joe connison. >> the least powerful man even in his own household. >> bill karins with a check on the forecast. >> very strong and strapping. >> yeah right. not alone there in the household thing. good morning everyone. the lack of snow is really starting to creep into everyone's foremind. we are watching for the most part one of the least coverage of snow across the country we've seen for this time of year. let me show you the map to explain. the blue shows you where the snow is. it's up in canada. it's up in the northern great lakes, a little bit in the rockies. but this is only 7% of the united states covered in snow. typically our snow line should be like this for this time of year. so if you're dreaming of a white christmas or hoping for snow or would like to ski or snowmobile, it looks tough throughout the northern half of the country. i don't see any snow events happening any time soon. it is plenty cold enough for snow in new england this morning but new england just like a lot
of other areas, it's short lived. this afternoon we jump into the 40s with sunshine and over the upcoming weekend the clouds move in with a chance of rain. now i showed you new york city here. it's also going to be warm enough for rain on the weekend up in areas of new england, too. so the ski resorts are trying to make the snow at night. but during the daylight hours, these warm temperatures, this is not what they wanted to see. forecast today, we are going to hold on to a little bit of cold and snow in the northern rockies. it's awful rainy this morning in the pacific northwest. on and off light rain the next two days for you and if you want to go skiing on fresh powder, really the only areas that are going to get some snow in the next couple days will be the northern rockies. look how warm it is. dallas at 74 degrees today. new orleans at 75. that continues. one other area of the country that is going to get chillier as we go through the end of weekend will be chicago. even there some people in chicago are waiting for the first snowflakes of the season. very unusual for them not to have a snowstorm by now. we leave you with a beautiful shot of the christmas tree at 30
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well, at 22 past the hour you know we love this. we have a really good one this morning. "forbes" is out with their new list of the world's most powerful people. joining us now from washington, "forbes" editor randall lane. joining us here in new york the editor of national memo.com back with us and harold ford is still
at the table as well. >> good morning. >> so let's talk about the most powerful people in the world. i'm sure harold made the top five. >> who is on the cover? yes. and joe. >> let's talk about the methodology. >> true. >> how did you guys rank the order? >> what defines? you have spheres of power, how many different areas are they powerful in? how many people do they control? how many resources do they control -- money, oil, things like that? how do they use their power? how actively do they wield it? >> that is a powerful hat you have on. >> there you go. it's my fiscal cliff helmet down here in washington. >> oh, understood. >> i love it. let's go through the list. not surprising who is number one? >> a re-elected barack obama back at number one. two years ago we had hu jintao so it is not automatic the president is at the top but with a kind of mini mandate, four
more years and the defacto leader of the free world it is a pretty easy selection of number one. >> angela merkel number two. easy to understand. >> europe goes through germany and germany goes through merkel. >> let's talk about vladimir putin coming in at number three. >> yes. he has been on the list even when he wasn't president because we all know who was still running the show then. he's back up there with a bullet. he's been as high as two on this list. here is somebody who has a u.n. security council permanency, controls a huge oil and gas reserve, has a nuclear tipped army and wields his power very effectively. >> and loves to show his muscles. many times as possible. >> powerful in many ways. that's right. >> of late bill gates has been the rodney dangerfield of silicon valley or seattle. he gets absolutely no respect but you give him plenty. he comes in at number four. why? >> this is where you talk about the spheres of power. here's somebody who is trying to cure world disease. in favourable terms of affecting millions of lives. he is 57 years old. he's the second richest man in
the world. he has the most influential nonprofit in the world. and if you just look at who he is affecting, the agenda globally, bill gates actually has never been more powerful even though he has almost nothing to do with microsoft anymore. >> number 28, mark zuckerberg, took quite a tumble this year. >> he's way down just like facebook stock has taken a tumble but it's not as much the stock price as much as kind of the bloom is off the rose. preipo last year. he was in the top ten. it was the idea the entire world was going to communicate through facebook and the rough ipo and all the privacy concerns, i mean, you know, he's not -- he doesn't walk on water anymore and the ranking reflects that. >> so the cover story is about the koch brothers. >> we have the koch brothers. >> number 41. and they are the second largest private company in america. tell us about them. >> that's right. we looked inside koch industries and charles and david koch brought us inside. we had our writer dan fisher spend a good amount of time going, traveling throughout the
koch empire. it was their first interview since the election. i mean, if you want to understand the politics of the kochs, you have to understand the business of the kochs. these are people who work -- they're not working on days or months or an election cycle kind of a world view. they're working in decades. if you look at what they built, what charles koch specifically has built over 50 years, he's been ceo of koch industries over 50 years, started when he was very young, inheriting from their father, they're up for the long game. so they had the long game in business. >> yes. >> their company is incredibly profitable and incredibly influential. but they're using the same philosophy in politics. and so david koch is telling us, people are just like, okay. the kochs. that didn't quite work in 2012 so that's it for them. david koch tells us, we are going to keep doing this in terms of the political stuff until we stop breathing. >> yeah. >> until our last breath. >> harold, great.
>> a quick question. i see the president of china, the old one is off the new one is on but you have him at nine. they own so much of our debt. >> yes. >> they are influencing greatly oil and gas deposits and purchases. what explains the number nine? >> he is not president yet. he is head of the communist party and head of the army but he hasn't received full power yet. so hu jintao who was number one two years ago had all of the chinese power bases covered where he is still moving up. by next year i think you'll see him back and that is a fair point, back in the top three for sure. >> randall lane, editor of "forbes" thank you so much for coming on. >> the list. >> especially with your fiscal cliff helmet. i must get myself one. >> yes. >> immediately. >> everyone should have one. >> so let's go to mark halperin. >> yes? >> mark, fascinating, the koch brothers philosophy as far as politics go. >> there is a real debate and split now within the republican donor community.
the kochs are in it for long haul they say and that is one view but there are a lot of other people who come out of the cycle pretty skeptical. did they get a return on investment for what they did? it is going to be interesting to see which of the presidential candidates, which of the super pacs, which can keep their interest and keep their faith that if they invest their millions and billions that they're going to get a return in the next election. >> joe, i sense the collapse of pets.com. have more unwise investments been exposed? like warren buffet always says when the tide goes out you can see who is naked. look at sheldon adelson. he contributed so much to so many republican candidates and at the end of the day only one of his candidates won. the koch brothers as well. but they're coming back. they're going to stay involved. >> and if i were a democrat, or a democratic leader, i'd say that's a great thing. because they are fueling a split in the republican party right now. they are, their organization,
americans for prosperity, a lot of what they've done over the past few years has created a great sort of sense of unreality among republicans. >> in what way? >> they push forward the tea party, which is now a huge problem for the republican leadership, and they say they're going to keep doing that. so from the democratic point of view that is actually a good thing. i'm not saying everything they've done has been unsucce unsuccessf unsuccessful. they supported a lot of important institutions on the right. but right now -- >> and also a lot of important institutions in new york as well. >> yes. their philanthropy has been great. >> great philanthropy that. >> is very separate from the political side. the political side they are a problem for republicans right now because they're pushing the most radical perspective on this. they're still at war with the president. they're separate from other people in the business community. you could see yesterday when the president went to the business round table and got a warm reception because people there don't want to go over the cliff. >> that's right. >> define radical. when you say radical you're not talking about radical and social issues.
>> more tax cuts for the rich. the richest people like them. as opposed to raising taxes on the 2%. i mean, in other words, they are very much apart from the national consensus and from the growing consensus within their own party about what has to be done save the republicans. >> they share the philosophy club for growth right? >> roughly. maybe not every detail but basically correct. >> a good philosophy to share. >> you like it. >> i do like it. i love it. >> you love it. >> i believe in freedom. and this makes me feel good. freedom in the morning. >> oh, very nice. >> you just need to have the right candidates to carry the message. >> hillary clinton is done. >> actually believe freedom works for 100% of americans and not just for the 3%. >> i hope they stick with that, joe. because, you know, then a more sensible perspective is bound to grow. look, you said yourself the polls are very bad for republicans right now. >> right. >> it is in that below 30%, 28% or less, of the hard line
republican right position that the koch brothers are basically financing and that is where the support for that comes from. >> let's agree to this and go on to hillary clinton. >> yes. >> something we may agree on. >> she says she is done with politics. >> she says she is done with politics. americans say they hope not. 57% of americans say they want be her to run in 2016. >> there are a lot of people who are expecting the fire bell to ring and they're all going to have to come running out in 2016 -- >> yes, 2016. >> and, you know, it's understandable she would say that. she is done with politics for now. >> how is she supposed to answer it? >> what is she supposed to say? yeah i'm running now. nobody would ever do that. i think people including secretary clinton are trying to figure out what the best thing is to do right now and she will eventually make a decision but i would say, you know, there is a growing sense among people around her that the likelihood is greater than not that she will seriously consider running.
>> mark halperin, is there any question in washington in democratic circles that hillary clinton is a standard bearer four years from now? >> nobody i can find thinks anything but that. and they all think part of why it is so likely is because she does want a little bit of time to do her beaches and speeches thing but she's got the time because there's not a person in the field and that includes the vice president who if hillary clinton runs can figure out a way to beat her because she just brings, again, in my career, unprecedented strength as both the contestant for a party nomination and also a general election candidate. >> harold, do you agree? >> i do. as we said earlier -- i hope she runs -- but i think she paralyzes the field until she makes up her mind. the fund raising, big fundraisers won't move. the democratic party chairs across the country won't move. and the real political talent to work in campaigns won't move. so again, i like her and i hope she -- i think it's good for the party. >> joe, stay with us. when we come back our next guest has sold more than 40 million
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welcome back to "morning joe." 36 past the hour. here with us now "new york times" best selling crime writer michael connelly who is out with his 25th novel. congratulations on that. this one is entitled "the black box." very good to have you on the show. >> thanks for having me on. >> wow. >> michael, a great review from the "new york times." >> that doesn't hurt. >> no, that helps quite a bit i think. >> i think it does, too. this is about a cold case. >> yeah. it's about -- the book is rooted in the 1992 riots. this is my 20th year of being published so i went back to the beginning and in los angeles that was the event of the year. >> the rodney king incident. >> yes, the trial of the police on brutality charges following the rodney king incident. and the verdicts in that set off the city and in pretty awful ways. i was a reporter back then. had some experience in that time that always stayed with me.
and so coming to my 25th book and my 20th year i decided to make it a 20-year story so i went back to that time and it's about trying to solve a murder during that time. >> 25 books in 20 years? >> wow. >> are you writing 24 hours a day? >> about 16. >> so you talked about the bizarre things you saw when you were there as a reporter -- the looting of frederick's of hollywood and scientologists standing out with broom sticks trying to protect -- just a crazy time. >> yeah. it was surreal. it was very strange. especially i lived there for quite a long time at that point and really loved the city. i think like most of the people in the city was pretty much taken by surprise by what happened. it was a good lesson to learn. >> michael, who is harry bosh, your main character, who is he based on? i mean, he is your main character. i just get a sense, are there echos or signs of you or friends or others that we may know of or family members? >> well, he's got a little bit
of me -- >> maybe you don't want to say. >> harry and i both happen to have teenage daughters so we share that. >> okay. >> for the most part his detective side comes from many different detectives. when i was a police reporter i was talking to dozens of detectives a day and so i took a little bit from everybody, every time i saw something that didn't really fit in a newspaper story, i put it in my back pocket for harry bosh. >> there's a tv series coming. >> we hope so. we're working on it. but everything in hollywood is a big if. i think i put together a very good group of guys. >> what would be the draw of this character, do you think, that would make it a fantastic tv series? give us your best pitch ever. >> he's lasted 20 years so i think there is something in there. i think two things. one is the guy is relentless. he goes through obstacles and around obstacles and the way he does it is endearing to readers and would obviously translate to television. the other part is that his baseline, he lives by a code.
everybody counts or nobody counts. and that's baseline fairness. and it's really an ideal. not everyone can live up to that kind of view. but harry does his darnedest to do it and i think those combinations, i think, or we're hoping, the big if, that hollywood pay attention to that and put him on the air. >> you know this story, one of the fascinating elements of this story of the plot line is the fact you have a photo journalist in 1992 in the midst of the riots in all of that mayhem, all of that chaos, of being shot, execution style. it's a cold case and, harry, of course, has to fight everybody in the lapd. that reminds me of two different stories. obviously what happened after katrina, the chaos and mayhem that happened after katrina. but also now ken burns is telling us he is trying to revisit what happened with the central park jogger and apparently that story may not be everything that we were told it
was 20 years ago. and so i guess harry is fighting the status quo, a lot of bureaucrats who don't want to open this back up. right? >> yeah. that is one of the provocative or dramatic things i put into these stories. harry bosh often has to fight his own department to do the right thing to bring justice to a case and in this one he's got his head down, being relentless trying to solve this case and people in the upper echelon of the department are thinking about image and pr and is this the one case we want to solve when so many people in that community were murdered. do we want to solve the murder of a white, foreign journalist? is that really the only one we want to solve on the 20th anniversary of the riots? and harry is like what does it matter? justice denied is justice denied. and this lady had a family over there in denmark that has been wondering what happened over here for 20 years. and so he's going to solve it no matter what they think. >> the novel --
>> by the way, michael, you know, michael is a smart guy. he can write very well. he's prolific. he's a gator. i just found out he's a gator! go gators! >> okay. now i understand. >> i'm going to the sugar bowl. >> now i understand everything. the novel is "the black box." michael connelly, thank you so much. >> good luck with the tv series. i bet it is going to be great. >> up next is apple stock set for a rebound after going sour yesterday? brian sullivan joins us next. can i help you?
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here made in america but engines are made in america and exported. the glass on this phone is made in kentucky. so we've been working for years on doing more and more in the united states. next year we will do one of our existing mac lines in the united states. >> that was apple ceo tim cook, who says there are major challenges in setting up production in the united states instead of china. the exclusive interview airs tonight on "rock center" with brian williams. so let's bring right now exclusively to "morning joe" from 8:45 a.m. to 8:47 a.m. cnbc's brian sullivan, business before the bell. brian, why in the world -- what happened to apple's stock yesterday? why the big loss? what does tim cook and apple need to do to make investors a bit more confident? >> there are a couple reasons why people cited apple stock being down.
not just down yesterday. apple shares are down about a hundred plus bucks over the last six weeks. there's been a report out they are losing share to google's android. there is also concern about capital gains taxes. apple has been such a great performer over the last couple years that if you believe capital gains taxes are going to go up this has been a big winner for you. that's selling now could save you a ton of money versus selling next year. it's kind of a couple different head winds but i love the story. i think it will be a small portion of mac manufacturing but, still, having any manufacturing coming back to the united states especially high tech manufacturing from a leading company like apple, i think sends a very, very strong and good message. >> brian, harold ford. good morning. >> good morning. >> the questions around apple and whether the competition from, you mentioned android, but what microsoft is doing and obviously other companies, how does that affect the stock price going forward?
andy surfs on saying it is a good price for the stock. how do you think the market is interpreting this? >> two things, harold. they're good questions. number one, on the tax issue if we can get something resolved where capital gains stay close to where they are you'll see those people come back in but from a competitive aspect, you can look at the android power devices which are selling well. you've got the kindle fire from amazon. microsoft rolling out its new surface tablet. i'm sure you've seen the advertising. it's everywhere. every single microsoft analyst or tech analyst we have spoken to says all indications point to very, very slow sales for the microsoft surface. at least so far some say it is too expensive. i'm not sure microsoft is going to be necessarily a threat to apple. the android price points certainly could be though. >> let's bring in our apple correspondent in washington, d.c., mark halperin. what's the problem here? you have been an apple enthusiast from day one.
are you any less confident in the company you love so much? or do you think it's just about selling off profits before the end of the year? >> i think cook is both as a public spokesman and somebody who is trying to take control of the company it seems like he is doing a very good job. you know, they're innovative. the big thing i am waiting for and i think brian will confirm some of the market is waiting for is to see if they make the push into tvs. that potentially gives them a real leg up in the unified piece of hardware that people use for all sorts of functions rather than the separate devices. >> interesting. >> i get confused by that because i actually use apple tv already at home. certainly what you're talking about, mark, is the actual television that is sort of integrated on an ios, apple operating system basis, has cable tv through it. but remember they already sell the $99 little black box you can put an hdmi cable into and buy tv shows, surf netflix, look at
youtube, whatever you might want to do. so i do worry about that. it is a great question. but how expensive would it be? we're already seeing apple lap tops at basically two grand for a mid price point mac book. how much are people willing to spend on a television even -- there are some who will spend anything but a grand or two more than a 55-inch samsung or vizio flat panel with the $99 add on, there is the challenge. >> especially when you have so many other options, too. you have of course the basic dvrs with your cable system, tivo, which has been very aggressive in competing with apple tv, and apple tv for some reason has never taken off. >> yeah. >> i wouldn't bet against apple though. this is a tough company to bet against. >> brian sullivan, thank you very much. i'm hearing great things about the kindle fire. have you guys seen it? >> no. >> hum. all right. up next -- i've heard great things about it.
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